But it is still the military-industrial complex we are fighting for. That same "complex" bemoaned by Lincoln, even, after war's end, and, of course, Ike, in his farewell speech to Congress. But I am convinced GW Bush thinks he's a crusader. Against terrorism and against Islam, defender of Israel, arbiter of Armageddon. I heard many times from my 'Nam vet peers that "those gooks do not respect life like we do here." That was their Buddhist outlook they were referring to. For us Christians it is one life, one judgement. What might have been misunderstood was that they were fighting for their country, in their country. We were as brutal as any army in history. A shameful period in our history. Now, we are embroiled in a war that has lasted longer than the last Big One and, although 3000 Americans have been killed over nearly 4 years, 650.000 Iraqis have perished. Dead Indians?
From: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/jus_the_facts/64
I submit to you that what took place
on November 22, 1963 was a coup
d'etat. Its most direct and tragic
result was a reversal of President
Kennedy's commitment to withdraw
from Vietnam. War is the biggest
business in America worth $80 billion
a year. The President was murdered
by a conspiracy planned in advance
at the highest levels of the United
States government and carried out by
fanatical and disciplined Cold
Warriors in the Pentagon and CIA's
covert operations apparatus - among
them Clay Shaw here before you. It
was a public execution and it was
covered up by like - minded
individuals in the Dallas Police
Department, the Secret Service, the
FBI, and the White House - all the
way up to and including J. Edgar
Hoover and Lyndon Johnson, whom I
consider accomplices after the fact.
** SOUTHEAST ASIA: 58,000 American lives, 2 million Asian
lives, $220 billion spent, 10 million Americans air - lifted
there by commercial aircraft, more than 5,000 helicopters
lost, 6.5 million tons of bombs dropped.
Not since Romans salted the earth at Carthage, has an army done so much damage to future generations of a country.
Peath is not a 4 letter word.
http://www.mcc.org/us/peaceeducation/speech/2004speech.html
In 146 BCE, Roman legions salted the ground of defeated Carthage to complete the destruction of their enemies' homeland and prevent the survivors from planting crops and rebuilding the city. But the same salt that prevented Carthage's rebuilding surely prevented wild plants from growing in the fields just as thoroughly, crippling an entire ecosystem just to keep Rome's enemies in check.
Nowadays, we have more effective things than salt. During the Vietnam War, the United States military dumped some 11 million gallons of the defoliant herbicide Agent Orange on about 10 percent of South Vietnam's land area. The strategic reason was to deprive enemy guerillas of cover — but the Vietnamese jungle received massive "collateral damage." Today the ecosystem is still poisoned by those herbicides. A study by native scientist Dr. Nguyen Viet Nhan, cited in a 1998 BBC report, links Agent Orange to a tripling in the rate of children born with cleft palates, extra fingers or toes, and mental retardation. The war is over, but the salt lingers in Nature's wounds.
At the end of the first Gulf War, the Iraqi Army deliberately released some 460 million gallons of Kuwaiti crude oil into the Persian Gulf, killing fish, turtles, crabs, mollusks, and between 20 and 30,000 seabirds. The Iraqis also set fire to hundreds of Kuwaiti oil wells, filling the air with smoke that actually altered the local temperature before returning to earth as acid rain.
Or, try this on for size--From: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennet-kelley/what-would-bobby-do_b_35421.html
15 comments:
Thank you, my found friend in seeking a newer world. I was never one to spit upon my brothers as they returned, guilty and maimed. Thank you for two tours too.
'Tis not too late', as you apparently know, 'to seek a newer world.' You did your duty and of course you had to eat. I know the conundrum. Yours is a very valuable voice of one who has been to war and worked in the establishment.
One of the first meetings President Kennedy had was with the Pentagon brass, who filled him in on the Cold War and urged the fiasco of the Bay of Pigs, escalation of 'Nam, et al. Methinks Jack and Bobby were eventually "on" to all that. It takes time and of course courage to try to figure it all out.
You are correct that, if there is any continuity in our government, it is with the brass. As long as we have military academies, we will have war. What do they learn there anyhow? And talk about trained automotons! I know, I briefly attended one of our nation's military academies in 1968, albeit the purportedly pussy Coast Guard Academy.
Perhaps we the people can all find common ground in opposing the merchants and the machinery of death and destruction (mayhem)? These types dig that it is all so diffuse and know the loopholes and the ways to get their way. Their way. Not ours.
And, yes indeed, history tells us we must defend ourselves, so there is no getting around that. Much as I and likely indeed the vast vast majority of us all here, all 6 going swiftly on 8 Billion of us, would like to live, let live and learn what it is we came here for (or were sentenced here for?), there is indeed evil and it can as well be US. Hope to hear more and more from you, kind and thoughtful Sir.....
I perhaps pity the poor fish, but not the man in Nature. And, we all gotta eat.
jfd,
Very good commentary, pragmatic and obviously of the world.
Regardless of our culture or our country, our values or religions, certain genetic and natural principles govern our existence and from that springs most values systems and resulting ethics.
When these natural orders associated with man's "Ethos" or "Normal State" are disturbed then laws, value systems, cultures, beliefs and religions come into existence to deal with the situation.
These are created by man and subject to the frailties of man. Major world events and natural catastrophes drive disturbances to the norm.
Technology, advancements in our knowledge of our brain and factors such as environmental limitations (global warming for example) will no doubt also drive disturbances to the norm down the road. To be sure the National Debt and World Debt, for that matter will have its influence; hence the perpetual evolution of values and corresponding ethics to deal with these things.
The most dramatic clash among men reflecting conflicts in values and corresponding ethics is WAR.
Our war machine reflects this.
Very nice. I can't post comments, though, because it says I'm putting in the incorrect password. Hell, I thought my Google password was th4e same one I use for everything else in cyberspace. Guess not. What to do?
In the meantime, I'll respond to what you've done so far here:
1.) I really don't get your keen interest in the Kennedys. Going clear back to the dad, they've been a bunch of womanizers and east-coast elitists. You have that Bobby quote on your masthead about ideals, and I know you used to say that when JFK was killed, it seemed like "the dream" had died. What dream? He was a modestly important president. Two best things he did: get us through the Cuban Missile Crisis in an honorable, nuke-exchange-free way, and be an outspoken proponent of low taxes. Now on to Bobby: I guess he did good work against the Mafia as attorney general, and at first, circa 1962, he was on board with those who wanted to stop communism in southeast Asia. Not sure what happened to transform him into a peacenik by the time he ran for president. Things unravel quikcly ion that family post-Bobby. Ted the Swi,mmer, anyone?
2.) By the way, it's pretty clear that you think our involvement in Vietnam was a mistake. ("Brutal" is how you characterize our effort, as if war can be fought any other way.) Okay, I won't argue any specifics, such as Agent Orange. Let me pose a big question to you. Let's take a moment in the early 60s. How about the early fall of 63, when JFK ws still alive and prez, and we had some military advisors over there, and some top South Vietnamese military brass came to our CIA and asked it to look the other way while they assissinated Diem (well, actually, that's more specific than I really want to get; it's an ethical question fraught with all kinds of implications.) Or how about a year later, during the Gulf of Tonkin incident, or how about the following spring (65), when we introduced ground troops in the south and began bombing the north? Pick one of those times and tell me what we should have done differently to prevent what happened in April 1975? Or, to put it more basically, which is how I want to keep this, did we or did we not have moral and strategic obligations to try to keep South Vietnam from going communist?
3.) Now, fast forward to our own time. What is your policy prescription for Iraq?
- BQ
Dings:
I'll try to figure out how to surmount the password connunrum, but in the meantime, I have a real basic question for you. You can muse over it in a Channeling Bobby Kennedy post perhaps.
I get the distinct impression that you fall into the camp that sees the United States as a heavy-handed and hubristic force on the world stage. That's debatable, and I would argue otherwise. We do both know, however, that we are the most free, prosperous and generous nation on earth. What overarching policy approach will best insure that this continues to be the case?
Chew awhile, bro, and then muse away.
- BQ
I'm ruminating and consulting my Muse at the moment. More later on the points you raised, Mr. Quick, but initially here I will say, briefly, yes, I too dearly love this America of my birth. This is the land of my grandparents' births, but before that
our claims lie in Germany and Ireland (not unusual stock for these shores) and, they too, obviously still are in the mix. I cannot help but love, admire and aspire to the ideals promulgated in our great documents left by our founding fathers. I would have appreciated a bit better treatment of the indigenous cultures here, but, hey, that was the way. Savages they. And woe unto the non-landowner or the African bushman brought here or even the softer sex. Still, this land of the free, home of the brave has yet to be, just that, entirely. That is still, now, up to us men and women here, now, through our government of laws. Especially since WW II we have been the big kid on the block in this global village. No country
here in history happening now has yet achieved perfection. Yet, we have aspired to some quite lofty ideals. Are we the greatest? Or even the most free, prosperous and generous? (Oh Canada?) If we are, then, in the provisional analysis, that judgment lies with the God in whom we trust; in His silence, then
we must ask the rest of the neighborhood. Nobody likes a bully. To be continued....
Some of what rosecovered glasses is saying reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut and Daniel Quinn, author of "Ishmael." The man has been there and beyond and back. A valuable voice indeed! Play on, play on...
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3222,36-854081@51-823016,0.html
GW’s speech last night acknowledged mistakes had been made. And he accepts responsibility. If he was a coach, he likely would have been fired by a person in a position of sufficient power to do so, before the speech. He is the person in sufficient power, now. Gee, I have learned that when I make mistakes (and I still make them, hopefully not as many), I avoid the behavior. It seems to me he is pouring kerosene on this fire. Generally the trend from the Pentagon has always been: mo troops, mo money.
Give me money, yeah, yeah, yeah (that’s what I want)
Lots of money, yeah, yeah, yeah (oh yeah, that’s what I
want)
There is strong, almost unanimous agreement here and elsewhere in the world that the crazed terrorists and those who support them must be stopped. And that means, dead in their tracks. If (George) could turn back the hands of time…..
Mr. Channeling, did you post that stuff from Peace Education and Democratic Underground because you believe in the coup-d'etat-at-the-highest-levels assertions? Your answer will help me know how to proceed in this discussion.
Answer to that question posed by beecue is a definite "no." I do not believe in coup-d'etat-at-the-highest-levels, here in the America that I love. Come on, man, this is a democracy. And, other than this land, this dirt and shining seas, it is the thing I prize about living here. You know me better than that, don't you. I guess I better re-read the sources I am quoting in their entirety, and, if nothing else, add a proviso.
I love it! GW in his weekly radio address asks: What’s Your Plan?” (if you don’t like mine). Nah nah nah nah nah. Well we forgot we funded an Iraq Study Group that he largely ignored. That’s it, scatter public opinion. The UN had a plan 4 years ago. Bad for French wine and Dixie Chick album sales, but the Krauts came through relatively unscathed. Somebody ask them. Just take a look at the free foreign press for their opinions. ( I know, I would be tempted to yawn too if we had been yawning all along.)
Vomitus anyone? McGovern came up with a proposal (Former senator George McGovern and William R. Polk, a leading authority on the Middle East, offer a detailed plan for a speedy troop withdrawal from Iraq.During the phased withdrawal, to begin on December 31, 2006, and to be completed by June 30, 2007, they recommend that the Iraq government engage the temporary services of an international stabilization force to police the country. Other elements in the withdrawal plan include an independent accounting of American expenditures of Iraqi funds, reparations to Iraqi civilians for lives lost and property destroyed, immediate release of all prisoners of war, the closing of American detention centers, and offering to void all contracts for petroleum exploration, development, and marketing made during the American occupation). And, while you will not be impressed, Jimmy Carter has some ideas too, etc., etc. I say, oil your bicycle chains and get to know your neighbors on the bus. Forget the oil, forget the fuss.
Just google the plans, George. That’s a search engine. I am reading that we have to seize Baghdad again. So much for Shock and Awe. Catch 22 anyone?
I like this commentary from the admittedly left “New Yorker” at http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/070115ta_talk_hertzberg
“Compared to many of the other horrors that have served as milestones along the four-year journey from shock and awe through stay the course to surge and pray, what happened at 6:10 A.M. on December 30th in that dank, foul-smelling execution chamber was relatively free of bloodshed. Only one person was killed, and he was anything but an innocent civilian. Yet in many quarters—here, in Iraq, and around the world—there has been a conspicuous failure to feel good.”
James Brown don’t likely feel good no mo’ either, not in his accustomed manner. But at least he got to go natu ra ly, just let him go nat u ral ly. (Yeah, all these pop songs runnin’ around in me head–vaccinated with a phonograph needle.)
Yes, indeedie, it is a very dangerous world. Did you see where they have again moved the hands on the Doomsday clock ahead. Still ’round midnight, of course. Only been closer twice. Yet we go along so diffusely. OK, George. You got your new plan, let’s get cracking. You got the power in you. As for Somalia, if the strategy works, I am all for it. Methinks though, this dousing fires with kerosene is dauntless, but perhaps ballsy. Such an implicative word.
Mr. Channeling, I'm still unclear as to what you see as an overacrching policy structure formation you'd get behind. Should we leave immediately? If not, what particular timetable will result in the best outcome (for troops' immediate safety, for best possible chances for some kind of Iraqi stabilization, for our longer-term security)? Should we stay at current levels? Surge? Consider this a regional situation in the ISG sense of talking to Iran and Syria (and if that's it, please explain how that helps anything)?
I won't be coy. What I get behind is the president's plan for the way forward as outlined in last week's speech. Leaving now or even soon equals sure collapes of Iraq. Iran and Syria are our enemies. Things may still go to hell for us in Iraq, but we have no other grown-up options.
Going back up to beecue's question about whether I believe in coup de tat at the highest levels assertions, I checked at Democratic Underground and, man, I have to remind you, you were there, there are over a thousand threads going there, just in the past
two days! Which brings me to a poem I wrote yesterday, out of seasonal affective depression, but my lights are on order. (It's my blog and I'll cry if I want to, cry
me a river, rollin' rollin'...)
Poor Poem for the Day
Blogs, blogs,
Hogs on their blogs,
Single-spaced
Between us all,
No wonder we're
Headed for a fall.
It's just more ego,
Where did we go
Wrong?
Turn on the telly:
Not feeling wellie?
There's KY Jelly,
Stuff for your belly.
In the beginning:
A unifyer,
Now merely
An equalizer.
I root for my team,
You have your own dream
And things are still not
Near what they seem.
So where's this going,
This "I don't knowing?"
This shit I'm throwing
Against the wall here.
It's going nowhere,
Just like our blogs here,
We're only hogs here,
Led off to slaughter.
JFD, 1/14/07
Well, my main point is that Baker and Hamilton and McGovern all had plans. Gore Vidal even had a reaction, back, oh, in November, 2003, in answer to the question: How do you think the current war in Iraq is going to play out? He replied: “I think we will go down the tubes right with it. With each action Bush ever more enrages the Muslims. And there are a billion of them. And sooner or later they will have a Saladin who will pull them together, and they will come after us. And it won’t be pretty..” Well, so far, so bad.
Ask the French and the Germans. Ask Kofi Annan. (I know that will shed you a few pounds) And here is our prexy asking a national radio audience about what plans they have if they don’t like his. How long did it take them to come up with that stuff? I will defer to them now (and before), on most points. We went in, against what would have been my advices and vote, we found no WMDs,. Powell even ran their lies for them with audio visuals at the UN and where is he now? Too much of an officer and gentleman to speak out now, but I can’t wait for his “tell all” if we survive the next decade. Prexy and people have had nearly 4 years since shock and awe and the victory in the battle of Baghdad to stabilize Iraq. Are they blaming the protesters and the press for their failures in this one yet? Now I hear his new def secy saying we might be outta there by year’s end with the escalation. Odds on that, anyone? It is FUBARed (a military-engineering term which cannot be translated here since it is a gentleperson’s site).
Well, just taking military measures is taking one hell of a long time. Biden hit the nail on the head when he immediately reacted to the escalation by remarking that the President can do anything he wants to. After 4 years of BS and failed promises we should not trust the directions we have been continually heading in, but we have no choice, really. What does it really matter if George Bush’s name is mud in history? If we have one left for long. I am not saying that we would not have eventually had to drop in on Baghdad, but the way they did it and what has happened since is a fiasco. Keep fishin’ George, you’ll be forced to cut bait soon enough. The whole world is really watching this one…..and early returns are not favorable. But, have Bush and Co. ever cared, really, about public opinion? Not on our human lives in this arena.
I am behind the Bleaker-Haveoffit conclusions--a bipartisan study group that did its homework and reported back, as requested. But, no, go Georgie, go. You keep at it. I'll watch. And pray. Hope I make it to your glorious day too. Will you let me into your heaven? Sorry, I am not knocking at your door. Might see you
boring them all somewhere else though.
As King George asks in his weekly radio address that nobody listens to but the press : What’s your plan?
Just out of the White House today, another bipartisan bitch session. This, now, from our senior senator here, whose foreign policy credentials are impeccable, if not steely eyed, certainly not that pie in the sky-eyed (are they?): (see http://lugar.senate.gov/sfrc/ for the skinny, if you need an update on his resume), here, in part:
From January 2003 to December 2006, Senator Dick Lugar reclaimed the Chairmanship of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.The Senate Foreign Relations Committee under Lugar, held more hearings than any other committee in the Senate, including more than 30 oversight hearings on Iraq. The Committee and passed legislation creating the Millennium Challenge Corporation - President Bush’s new foreign aid initiative, the global AIDS assistance program, Darfur Peace and Accountability Act, and the India nuclear cooperation act. Lugar also focused on foreign energy dependence as a national security issue. Lugar defined the public debate with major speeches before the UN Security Council, the Brookings Institution, Purdue University, a NATO Conference in Riga, Latvia, and a joint appearance with New York Times columnist Tom Friedman at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.During his initial chairmanship of the Senate Foreign Senator Lugar meeting with Secretary of State Colin Powell before Secretary Powell testifies in front of the Foreign Relations Committee.Relations Committee from 1985 to 1986, Senator Lugar was instrumental in promoting democracy around the world. He played a pivotal role in the 1986 Philippines election that brought Corazon Aquino to power. He also led the Senate effort to secure passage of the Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986, which imposed economic and political sanctions on South Africa.
Today, he tells King George of his party: From the NYT:
Senator Richard Lugar, a Republican from Indiana and a normally cautious foreign-policy expert, was among those invited to the White House. He warned that, “Iraq will not soon become the type of pluralist, unified, democratic bulwark in the center of the Middle East for which some in the Bush administration had hoped.”
FUBARed….. But both Lugar and Hillie and 77 other Senators voted “Yeah” to go in. For posterity, reprinted here is the list of the naysayers: They can certainly say, “I told you so:
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)
I told you so, for what that is worth. One vote in a Republican state. That’s all. Until I make more $$$, which is certainly power.
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